Micro Mart Forum » Technical Forums » System Builders and Upgraders » £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

£550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

JimGardener — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:51:39 GMT

I'm looking to build something suitable for gaming and as a home entertainment centre. I've already got a 22" Monitor and a Silverstone LC13 case, but need the PC Harware and a copy of Vista. I was thinking on the following lines

Motherboard - an ASUS model with onboard sound (not bothered about SLI) £75?

CPU - I'd really like to go for a Q6600 (got one on this rig) - for future proofing (ha, ha) £150?

Ram - 2 Gig should do of DDR2 £35?

Graphics - Geforce 8800 series £150?

PSU £40?

Harddisk 500 Gig £50?

DVD Rewriter £25?

Vista Premium £75?

Now that all adds up to £600 so somethings got to give! There is some budgetary flexibility but the system will not be used much so I don't want to go overboard. It is important that it is quite(ish) and I would sacrifice some performance for that (replacing the case fans might also be sensible). In terms of "future proofing" my intention would be to use the system for three years adding extra ram, hard disks, and replacing the graphics card in that time. I wouldn't be planning to replace the CPU or Mobo - hence the weighting of the budget. In three years I think I'd need a new board and cpu anyway and don't think a transition to DDR3 would be a good investment.

Anyway over to you, all advice greatly received.

Cheers

Jim

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

FreakShow! — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:51:39 GMT

[quote][b]MartenReed (11/03/2008)[/b][hr]I don't have a life.
What's a life?
What's a computer?
Eeek.
Existential Crisis.

AGAIN! :w00t:[/quote]

Not even the existential Crisis exists! Your alone, nothing but your mind exists.

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

Zoey! — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:37:18 GMT

I don't have a life.
What's a life?
What's a computer?
Eeek.
Existential Crisis.

AGAIN! :w00t:

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

~Wiz~ — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:13:51 GMT

Yup - you know it's all gone wrong when you find a keyboard under your noggin instead of a pillow...drool and electronics don't mix...:hehe:

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

Slipstreem — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:11:18 GMT

[quote][b]-Wiz!- (11/03/2008)[/b][hr]We all went wrong allowing PC's to become our [b]lives[/b]...:P[/quote]
Corrected. ;)

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

~Wiz~ — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:09:04 GMT

We all went wrong allowing PC's to become our hobbies...:P

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

keith — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:01:01 GMT

Matt , you keep on about all the generic better cooling that could be used. The OP gave the brief ....put a system together using all this superior cooling for £550 and show us where we have gone wrong.

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

Slipstreem — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 16:01:38 GMT

No probs. ;)

Thanks for triggering such a lively discussion. I wouldn't have got around to conducting this experiment again and actually writing some figures down this time if it hadn't have been for the contents of this thread. :)

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:

@keith: Clear your PM inbox matey. ;)

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

brummy matt — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:58:07 GMT

Ah I think thats it, I'm pretty sure I disabled it when I was playing with BIOS whilst doing my overclock. Nice one. :)

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

Slipstreem — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:53:01 GMT

No special secrets, Matt. Maybe you don't have Intel SpeedStep enabled. It only works up to BIOS revision 2.10 on our motherboards and it does make a [i]huge[/i] difference. :)

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

brummy matt — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:49:39 GMT

Thats pretty darn impressive!

How do you keep your rig so cool with no case fans? Even with all mine going full tilt I only get down to about 33degC and my case is tidy as can be(good ol cable ties! ;)). My old IDE HDD which is still in there does get pretty warm though...

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

Slipstreem — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:34:05 GMT

I've just carried out an experiment that you may find interesting. :)

As you can see from my sig, I have an E4300 running at 2.83GHz with the ACF7Pro fitted. The only other fan in my PC is the 12cm one inside the PSU which is under thermal control and barely ever spins at more than a tickover.

I decided to see how hot the CPU would get running the ACF7Pro fanless whilst running the Orthos stress test hammering both CPU cores with Gromacs cores. CPU temperature measurements were made with CoreTemp Beta 0.94. Intel SpeedStep and thermal-throttling are enabled in the BIOS and CPU-Z version 1.39 was used to check for thermal-throttling. Room temperature was 21degC according to my Mercury thermometer.

The CPU temperature rose sharply initially to 50degC and then climbed steadily for the next 8 minutes until finally settling at 67degC. CPU-Z clearly showed that no thermal-throttling was taking place so this must be within the safe temperature limit for this CPU as defined by Intel themselves. In a situation where room temperature could be guaranteed, it's therefore theoretically safe to run the ACF7Pro fanless on my particular setup.

Reattaching the fan and running it at the lowest speed I can (1,000RPM) via SpeedFan with PWM speed control dropped the CPU temperature to 50degC within 2 minutes and held it there. I [i]honestly[/i] can't hear the fan above my Maxtor hard drive at this speed even with my head inside the open case.

I then stopped the stress test and in under a minute both cores had settled at 25degC whilst idle at the desktop.

I used to set a target temperature of 45degC with SpeedFan but, having now reconsidered my target, I'm happy to have 50degC as a safe maximum operating temperature personally as it's still [i]at least[/i] 17degC below the point where thermal-throttling is ever going to happen.

Conclusion?

With the current settings, I won't ever hear my CPU fan except on hot Summer days when room temperature exceeds the current level and SpeedFan starts to crank up the RPM. Even then, this is only going to happen when thrashing both cores of the CPU senseless.

Thanks for reading, and apologies to the OP for this mini-hijack. :)

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

brummy matt — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:10:09 GMT

[quote]Dave has already pointed out that the case fans on the LC13 case are going to be noisy,the graphics card is also going to be noisy.concentrating on the HSF is not where noise elimination will be most effective. [/quote]

I know, Slip has already commented on this after I said maybe a 3rd party HSF isn't necessary; citing that the ACF7 will do the same cooling as the stock intel but quieter. I'm focusing on the HSF because thats what we were discussing.

I agree the case fans will create noise and either a new case or removing the fans altogether will help solve it. The fans that you put in a case make a big difference to noise and cooling: hence the link in my earlier post to a roundup of good fans. I also included a roundup of quiet PSUs.

The graphics card can also be noisy but it depends on the card and cooler attached to it. Exhaust fan coolers can be noisier because fans that blow directly downwards inside the case are muffled by the case itself. Again like the CPU HSF, you can buy 3rd party HSFs that are quieter and/or cool better, but again its a personal choice: does the noise from it bother you enough to warrant the spend?

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

keith — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 14:49:31 GMT

I'll say it again Matt, you are concentrating on the HSF , I have been looking at the system as a whole...I.e what the OP is actually purchasing. I have built a system using the guts of my recommendation 2 weeks ago and it is only audible with 18 inches.The noise output I am talking about and what my recommendation is based on is what i can physically hear from a computer sat next to me.Not a complete guess pulling figures out of the air.

Dave has already pointed out that the case fans on the LC13 case are going to be noisy,the graphics card is also going to be noisy.concentrating on the HSF is not where noise elimination will be most effective.

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

brummy matt — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 14:06:17 GMT

[quote]If the OP decides to spend more money than is necessary to get the job done then that's his prerogative. It's his money. [/quote]

My point exactly Slip. All I'm trying to do is point out there are quieter and cooler options out there if he thinks its worth it. If depends on how badly he wants a silent pc. I'm a stickler for having a quiet PC so what I consider an irritating hum others may consider quiet. Similarly, its why I've got an expensive hi-fi, because I can hear the difference in quality and I get enjoyment out of it everyday. To some people that would seem ridiculous and they would strongly argue that a £50 stereo is more than adequate.

Keith, you are talking in your summarising comments as if I haven't already conceded that you guys are probably right about the ACF7 Pro and how quiet it is. I use the terms 'probably' and 'may' as like I have said and you yourself have reminded me, I have no personal experience with an ACF7 Pro, so I cannot say for absolute certain.

[quote]You aren't the person who is spending the money though.At no stage have you recommended a cooler that the OP should buy instead[/quote]

The reason I am making this whole arguement, again as I've pointed out in an earlier post, is so that the OP doesn't unwittingly buy a ACF7 Pro and find its noisier than he would like. I also included several links in one of my earlier posts to recommended quiet components that he could consider. Again, as I have said before, I'm doing this just so he's aware of all the facts before he parts with his cash - and as I said in my previous post, the ensuing debate has no doubt enlighted him as it has me. No he hasn't mentioned overclocking but he wants to keep his rig for 3 years so to me it seems inevitable he'll want to overclock it at some point if it gets him a potentially large, free upgrade.

I'll say this again Keith just so we're clear. I concede that you're probably right about the ACF7 Pro and that it will meet the OPs needs. But then I said that in my last post, as well as many other things I've had to repeat for you here, so maybe you should follow your own advice and listen.

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

keith — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:56:30 GMT

[quote][b]brummy matt (11/03/2008)[/b][hr]I'll concede that based on your collective experience that the ACF7 probably operates quieter than the review may indicate and may well be quiet enough for the OPs needs.[/quote]

theres an awful lot of may/probably/may in that statement. We have all stated that the freezer pro WILL satisfy the OP's needs.

[quote] I apologise as I must not be making my arguement clear as I am not saying the ACF7 is a bad cooler - just that more expensive ones can and do operate cooler and quieter. If you guys don't agree with that then I'm afriad we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.[/quote]

Where have we disputed that point?. What we are saying is that the Freezer Pro and AK965 will provide all the cooling that the OP requires. The OP said he wants a quiet(ish) pc NOT a SILENT one. To this end , the fact that there is a budget of £550 means that spending any more money on a more expensive HSF is a complete waste of money. In this case , more money spent on a quieter graphics card would be a better place to spend money than on a more expensive HSF.

[quote]

[quote]Matt, perhaps you'd do us the courtesy of actually listening to and understanding what we are telling you [/quote]

Keith, I come on this forum to voluntarily help people where I can and point out both the positives and negatives of things so they can make the most informed decision. If what I say sparks discussion and debate then all the better as I learn more as does the OP and anyone else who reads that particular thread. This is how I've learnt so much in the past 18 months or so. I do not come on here to be spoken to in the manner you have above. Those comments are in no way a part of the debate at hand or constructive and are simply derogatory towards myself. I'd be grateful if you'd refrain from making any such comments in future.[/quote]

Matt, we all come on here to voluntarily help people. The difference with this sub forum though is that we are recommending other people to spend there own hard earned cash. It is easy to throw in comments such as there are 'more expensive better coolers about' . You aren't the person who is spending the money though.At no stage have you recommended a cooler that the OP should buy instead,nor have you suggested which other parts of the build he should cut back on in order to fund your more expensive fan.

Its not just me who has said that the freezer Pro would suit the OP and after multiple posts from me and others, you were still saying that the OP should buy something else and that the freezer Pro was noisy. As an aside , in the review that you were basing all your comments on , they were driving the fan via a dc supply with a voltage regulator on it, this is not how anybody installing the fan in a computer would be using it as they would be taking advantage of the PWM fan control on the mobo's. Having defended the freezer Pro , I still state though that I would recommend the akasa AK-965 as I consider it to be better than the freezer pro, not from a 2 year article but from personal experience of using both coolers.

We were talking from first hand experience and you continued to state secondhand, 2 year old information on hardware from 2 years ago as fact.You have no experience with using the Freezer Pro and assume that because the review says its noisy running flat out, that the fan will be running flat out most of the time , thereby making the system noisy.Slippy and Dave and myself have all pointed out to you that the fan in normal operation on overclocked curent (i.e C2d and C2Q) sytems runs very slowly and that the noise output is negligible. By ignoring that information , you are being discourteous and effectively saying that we don't know what we are talking about. Hence , I stand by my point that you should have the courtesy to listen and learn from what we are telling you.

I apologise if my wording was blunt, but you weren't taking any notice of what we were telling you.The OP also made no reference as to whether he would be overclocking . If non overclocked, and intel speedstep enabled then as Slippy has already pointed out ,the fan noise output would be negligible.

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

Slipstreem — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:39:19 GMT

I think your input has been invaluable, Matt. :)

It helps to show the differing opinions between items when hurriedly reviewed by people doing the job because they're paid to and those using the hardware on a day-to-day basis and finding out how it [i]really[/i] performs in a real-world situation.

It's very similar to the ATI vs nVidia argument. On paper, nVidia appear to be the clear winners. In the real-world, most people who've actually [i]used[/i] ATI cards over any length of time and have learned how to drive them properly will tell you that they are the indisputable winners.

Now it's my turn to sound like a broken record... ;)

I'm not saying that the ACF7Pro is the best there is but, in reality, how much quieter does the fan on any aftermarket HSF need to be when it's already inaudible in a media centre PC when compared to the sound of a hard drive spinning? If the CPU is staying within a few degrees of ambient temperature at the same time then the HSF is obviously more than up to the job. Anything else would be overkill.

If the OP was building a machine to be [i]specifically[/i] used as a media centre then I'd probably recommend underclocking a C2D CPU to a maximum of 1.5GHz (more than enough) and running the ACF7Pro fanless. It works. I know. I've tried it.

It turns out that the OP actually wants a system almost identical to the one I have in terms of uses and performance and, under those circumstances, when used with intelligent fan speed control, the ACF7Pro is effectively silent for media centre usage and [i]far[/i] less noisy than a stock Intel cooler when gaming. If the OP decides to spend more money than is necessary to get the job done then that's his prerogative. It's his money. :)

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

brummy matt — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 08:36:24 GMT

I'll concede that based on your collective experience that the ACF7 probably operates quieter than the review may indicate and may well be quiet enough for the OPs needs. I apologise as I must not be making my arguement clear as I am not saying the ACF7 is a bad cooler - just that more expensive ones can and do operate cooler and quieter. If you guys don't agree with that then I'm afriad we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

[quote]Matt, perhaps you'd do us the courtesy of actually listening to and understanding what we are telling you [/quote]

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

ToRReVeZ — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:33:08 GMT

The AFP7, I have use one of these on an overclocked pentium D (you dont get much hotter than that) once the fan slows down its inaudiable and never spins up even at load keeps the PD just under 60C and thats when the computer is next to a radiator.

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

ricedg — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 21:12:22 GMT

Matt, the 3 of us aren't basing our opinion on a review we've read.
it's based on personal experience actually using these products.
In my case many, many times.

Just about every PC I build has an ACFP7 or AK965 in place of the stock HSF.
In the case of AMDs with Cool & Quiet or Asus Q-Fan, they spin so slowly that I have to turn off the alarm in the BIOS!

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

keith — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 20:19:39 GMT

Matt, perhaps you'd do us the courtesy of actually listening to and understanding what we are telling you .The article you are basing your argument on is 2 years old and using P4 class CPU's, the actual cpu they used was running 15-20c hotter than a P42.8 northwood. The current core2duo's and quad are far more efficient and emit less heat hence easier to cool and hence the fan doesn't have to work so fast.

Couple this with current mobo's offering PWM control of the cpu fan in the Bios via the likes of Q-fan etc then the actual fan speed can be altered easily. We are using the equipment that we are talking about and speak from experience.

The build I recommended above includingthe sustitution of cases later added , would mean it would be the same build + a graphics card that I have built 2 weeks ago and have sat running @2.8 Ghz at the moment.I may have lost a wee bit of hearing ....but I have to put my head within about 18 inches maximum away from that computer before i can hear anything . HOW MUCH QUIETER DO YOU WANT IT TO BE.?

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

Slipstreem — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:22:10 GMT

[quote][b]brummy matt (10/03/2008)[/b][hr]However, given the case fans are likely to be noisy then there's no point in buying a 3rd party cooler at all if the reason you're buying it is to make your rig quieter. Its only worth it if you want to max out your overclock.[/quote]
I can't agree I'm afraid, Matt.

If you look at the link I posted, the ACF7Pro is 14dB quieter for the same cooling effectiveness when compared to a stock Intel cooler. That's the equivalent of removing an entire fan's-worth of noise from your system with no hit on cooling performance.

If a person wants the best of both worlds then they enable Intel SpeedStep so that the CPU just ticks over for mundane tasks and requires almost no cooling anyway. When you need the horsepower, SpeedStep cranks up the multiplier and your CPU churns away at whatever you have it overclocked to. Combine the use of SpeedStep with an application like SpeedFan and you really do have the best of both worlds.

I have almost complete silence for media centre usage and [i]up to[/i] a maximum of the same equivalent noise level as the stock cooler when gaming but with much more effective cooling.

Unless the OP intends to go for an extremely high overclock on a quad-core then he won't need those case fans anyway. My PC lives inside a sofa and doesn't need any case fans to stay comfortably cool even when being spanked mercilessly.

Bear in mind that these reviewers probably only have a day at most to play with these coolers. I've been living with this almost-silent setup for over a year now. I also tried running the rig purely as a media centre with the fan completely unplugged and the CPU was still less than 10degC above ambient. Did the reviewers try that?

The only noise I ever hear when using this rig in its media centre capacity is the very faint whir of the hard drive late at night when there are less ambient noises to mask it. Even then I have to be deliberately listening for it. Under these circumstances my CPU sits at no more than 4 degC above room temperature most of the time.

I honestly can't see what the problem is. :)

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

brummy matt — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:59:03 GMT

I'm starting to sound like a stuck record but I'm not knocking the ACF7. You can clearly see from the results fo the SPCR review that the ACF7 holds its own in terms of cooling and noise when at full whack. For this reason, it is an excellent value for money cooler. However, when you operate the fans at comparably low or "silent" noise levels, the ACF7 runs 5-10deg hotter than the more expensive competition. Since the OP wants a quiet rig, its for this reason that I've highlighted this downside of the ACF7's performance: otherwise the OP might go out and buy one, undervolt it so its quiet and find his temps aren't what he was expecting because everyone told him how amazing it was.

However, given the case fans are likely to be noisy then there's no point in buying a 3rd party cooler at all if the reason you're buying it is to make your rig quieter. Its only worth it if you want to max out your overclock.

Again sounding like a stuck record, its a personal choice, I'm just playing devils advocate and making the OP aware of all the bad as well as the good.

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

ricedg — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:35:19 GMT

[quote]Another point to consider with alternative HSF's could be that they may not physically fit in a HTPC case.[/quote]
Quite right, some of these cases can be very small.
In this case (har har) I checked, which is why I know about the fans.

RE: £550 for a Media Centre / Gaming PC?

keith — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:26:37 GMT

Hi Matt, looking atthe other fans reviewed on silentPpc review , there isn't that much improvement in noise levels compared to the freezer pro and most of them cost almost twice as much.Thats why the freezer pro is recommended as its fantastic value for money. As Dave has pointed out , the fans in the case are likely to drown out out the HSF fan anyway not to mention the graphics card fan.Another point to consider with alternative HSF's could be that they may not physically fit in a HTPC case.

As the OP didnt seem especially enamoured with his case he could always stick it on ebay and replace it with the coolermaster elite with 460W PSU for £42. £5 more than the PSU i used in my priced up build. I know that combo is quiet as its what i've built.the money recouped from the sale of the lc13 and whats left inthe budget may then allow the graphics card to be upgraded or to put in a tv tuner card.