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RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

Bruce R — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:33:34 GMT

Which might explain the Brazilian stake in Mandriva 2008 Spring, with its more 'grown up' multi-level Security features. (Please see debate at [url]http://forum.micromart.co.uk/Topic312459-22-5.aspx#bm314004[/url] )

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

wyliecoyoteuk — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:26:38 GMT

The thing is that the solutions in Brazil are very innovative, and are designed more to facilitate learning all subjects, and in a very cost-efficient manner, not primarily for teaching programming or "IT" skills, although I am sure those will arrive in time.
So far, they have only deployed about half of the 90,000 PCs they ordered, but it seems to be going well.
Mandriva was involved in similar deployments in an African country a couple of years ago, IIRC, with one PC serving 5 pupils using an advanced KVM solution -perfect for saving power in areas where there is no mains electricity.

In our country, the IT suites seem to be largely used for teaching "IT"- i.e. MS software.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

rickonnye — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:20:26 GMT

Update: Just to say that so far of the letters/emails that I have sent to my local MPs and MEPs the only replies I have had so far are from the Green Party and the Conservatives. The Green Party reply I have posted a copy. I must say that I am very disappointed at the response so far and will write again to the parties next week if no more replies are forthcoming.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and replies on this thread they have all been a great help and have helped a great deal in my research and understanding of this issue. Being associated with the educational side of software has really opened my eyes in what can be achieved and used on a daily basis.

Since starting this thread I have helped (converted) seven people to use open source software on their computers and they all report they are loving it.

:)

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

ricedg — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:15:56 GMT

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Having access to the source code does not a programmer make :D

As I've said before, were we starting from scratch in the UK (as they are in South America) I don't doubt things would be very different.
But we're not.
And I'll bet you any money that Brazilian Engineering businesses will be using Windows / Autocad!
2 months ago I would have been able to find out for sure as one of our guys (since left the project) was working there for 2 years in the aerospace industry.
But knowing where his skill sets lie (he's not an engineer BTW) I can't imagine it was a Linux world.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

malc_wright — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:10:16 GMT

Just think on that for one moment Wylie, 52 million school kids using Linux with access to source code and all the learning possibilities that releases, with programming etc., whilst our 12 million will be stuck learning M$ office applications probably until University..

Guess which nation will become a third world one when measured in programming skills?

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

wyliecoyoteuk — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:51:19 GMT

I have learned a lot from this thread, not least from researching posts ;)
I read [url=http://piacentini.livejournal.com/7871.html] this article [/url] today, and thought it worth adding. If the Brazilian Govt can roll out LInux solutions to 52 million schoolchildren then we should be able to manage our "mere" 12 million :)

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

wyliecoyoteuk — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:07:30 GMT

[quote][b]ricedg (25/09/2008)[/b][hr]If you look at the Becta site, they recommend that schools buy in their IT as a managed solution.
Lets the teachers do what they're trained to do -teach!
Theteachers I've met are as good at IT as I am at teaching :P
I find it quite amazing that the head singles someone out and says you're our IT person (that seems to meto bewhat happens).
Some of the deals I've heard fo that have been signed because the person didn't know better...

Bectaalso recommend (but not I think mandate) that the service providers do include an open source alternative to Office.[/quote]

The first School "IT person" I ever met was a Woodwork teacher who faced a choice - redundancy or become IT manager.
I had to explain to him the problems with "daisy chaining" parallel ports i.e. he had a PC with a scanner and a printer connected via one parallel port with a passthrough on the scanner connector., and could not understand why I could not connect another printer to it.
The network was rubbish, but it had a nice walnut veneer :-)

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

malc_wright — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 06:59:51 GMT

Hi EdP

I just posted a new topic, but I've not diverted any posts, only left the posts you've read so that forumites who would like to be diverted can chose to go there.

That's why your post is still in this thread which is hopefully still alive and kicking.

Apologies for the diversion of thought around this thread.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

Tom Morton — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 23:39:15 GMT

Note the moderators tag he wears ;)

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

EdP — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 23:03:54 GMT

Apologies for the NEW diversion!
Stupid question - Malc just HOW did you start a new thread and divert the old posts?

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

malc_wright — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:43:28 GMT

New thread started.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

ricedg — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:40:15 GMT

I absolutely agree with you Malc, but it is a divergence from what this thread is all about.
After 16 pages of excellent debate it would be a shame to go off topic to ths extent and everyone is likely to agree with you (myself included).

For anyone coming in at the end, I think that would send the wrong message on the subject we have been debating at length and lead people to a different conclusion than the one (I believe) we have reached.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

malc_wright — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:21:27 GMT

Hi Dave R

I thought about a new thread, but the PC initiative is a clean start initiative, there are no vested interests, no IT department monoliths, no retraining issues, in fact nothing that this thread has so far thrown up as an objection/obstacle as to why the UK Government isn't using Open source more.

There are only objections on this issue, and there are no objections masquerading as obstacles, as portrayed in many of the replies to this topic.

So it will be extremely interesting to see what the chosen solution for this initiative is.

What's the betting they will ignore the one laptop per child Linux solution and go for a more costly proprietary based solution, not to mention the Government bodies and clawback agencies that will be created to monitor it.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

ricedg — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:09:34 GMT

I think you need to start a new thread on that one Malc.
I know it's Govt related, but not really the thing we're talking about.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

Bruce R — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 18:46:37 GMT

Hi Mad Malc :)
Unfortunately, judging by other government papers and Becta outputs, it wouldn't even get through the outer office and get considered unless it exceeded fifty pages of verbose 'mandarin'.
Oh for the days of Winston's single page reports ! (That great man wouldn't even consider proposals that couldn't be so described. - It's all a sequential versus holistic thing.) ;)
From a more practical point of view, an Open Source, preferred or recommended set of Linux [u]or[/u] Win32 packages appears to be the key, with the precise OS being almost incidental ? :rolleyes:

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

malc_wright — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:07:38 GMT

Gordon Brown promises inter net access for the poorest of families.

Apologies for the Link I'm not a reader but it was the first one up in Google:
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/sep/23/elearning.schools[/url]

Now I wonder what operating system those computers will have, as 'the poorest families' will certainly not welcome annual subscription costs to anti-malware products, or regular visits to someone to get the machine cleaned of nasties?

Should we all write to our MPs asking them to make sure that the Prime Ministers roll out of internet access doesn't burden the poorest with additional costs?

Could this be a lever to advocate Linux and Open source?

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

rickonnye — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:51:37 GMT

'I find it quite amazing that the head singles someone out and says you're our IT person (that seems to me to be what happens).
Some of the deals I've heard fo that have been signed because the person didn't know better...'

Yes you have hit the nail on the head here Dave, I have worked in schools and colleges and it usually comes down to someone buying in the only software they have heard about, i.e. MS. Some even didn't know what an operating system was or what it did, yet alone a choice of other software. Yes its all down to awareness of whats available and I am glad this is at last becoming more widely known.

:)

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

EdP — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:54:00 GMT

Spot on Dave! Browsing through the site there is a link to [url=http://www.opensourceschools.org.uk/]this[/url], which makes it evident that if schools need help and encouragement to seek a FOSS solution it is up to them. I presume that is the nub of the 'Microsoft Offering', so it is up to the OSS community to come up with equivalent competitive offerings, which will as Dave says 'allow teachers to teach'.

As an aside, there doesn't seem to be a Local Authority mandated approach, at least in my area. Schools here seem to have an unholy mixture of co-opted teachers, IT Teachers+Technologists, (mixtures of the two), and IT teacher(s)+a remotely managed solution (A sixth form college). (Being generous, maybe its a test bed area for the LA:D).

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

ricedg — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 09:53:39 GMT

If you look at the Becta site, they recommend that schools buy in their IT as a managed solution.
Lets the teachers do what they're trained to do - teach!
The teachers I've met are as good at IT as I am at teaching :P
I find it quite amazing that the head singles someone out and says you're our IT person (that seems to me to be what happens).
Some of the deals I've heard fo that have been signed because the person didn't know better...

Becta also recommend (but not I think mandate) that the service providers do include an open source alternative to Office.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

wyliecoyoteuk — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 09:47:35 GMT

[quote][b]Tippon (24/09/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Tom Morton (24/09/2008)[/b][hr]I suspect O2007 will win: at the end of the day it is a more stable, better equipped and easier to use product. :)

I think the advantages in speed, in terms of how fast someone can work, will tip the balance.[/quote]

Sorry Tom, I disagree with that. When the bulk of work done through any office suite is printing and saving* how does one suite give more productivity over another?

*You don't even need to create a new document, or use the Open command, as clicking the icon or double clicking the file does that for you and is ingrained into pretty much all computer users. Once the file is open, or created, most users just type away, and may use the toolbar if they are 'advanced' users :)[/quote]

The main reason my salesman wanted OOo back was because it took him 30 minutes to find the "print" item in O2007 .
A real contribution to his productivity.:P

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

EdP — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 09:13:12 GMT

[quote]If every school in the UK could save enough money by using open source software to provide one extra teacher[/quote]
As pointed out earlier, the choice of software isn't mandated by Government, but is left up to each Local Authority/ Head Teacher.

If you really feel strongly about this issue you should be talking to the Heads at your local schools and asking them what could they save by using FOSS, and what are the barriers which prevent them using FOSS. Obviously they will then involve their IT teacher/Technician and it would be up to you to sell the FOSS solution.

I suspect if you do, you will hit some of the ancillary costs/resistances that much of this debate has aired.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

rickonnye — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 08:28:46 GMT

If every school in the UK could save enough money by using open source software to provide one extra teacher, and each hospital/police station did the same to provide an extra nurse/policeman/woman it would fantastic. And that would be a lot of extra teachers/nurses/policemen/women.

:)

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

darrelljon — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:50:36 GMT

Linux and Windows are deployed to various extents on servers and desktops in the public sector worldwide.

IMHO, if an organisation truly supports a free society, it should use free (open source) software.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

Tippon — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:23:22 GMT

[quote][b]Tom Morton (24/09/2008)[/b][hr]I suspect O2007 will win: at the end of the day it is a more stable, better equipped and easier to use product. :)

I think the advantages in speed, in terms of how fast someone can work, will tip the balance.[/quote]

Sorry Tom, I disagree with that. When the bulk of work done through any office suite is printing and saving* how does one suite give more productivity over another?

*You don't even need to create a new document, or use the Open command, as clicking the icon or double clicking the file does that for you and is ingrained into pretty much all computer users. Once the file is open, or created, most users just type away, and may use the toolbar if they are 'advanced' users :)

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

Bruce R — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:08:11 GMT

Politicians, like a lot of journalists, speak in fashionable 'sound bites', demonstrating that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Thanks to spellcheckers they can at least spell IT (joke) :)
What can be more worrying is the IT staff supervisor who sneaks in to work at night in order to enter all the 'forbidden, yet documented commands', in order to 'see how robust the system is' and then walks away whistling when the system eventually crashes as a result. (That's when automatic log files can help.) ;)
For personal creation of a better mousetrap, Access is horrible. One table slip and you've lost it all, demonstrating that database definition is a non-trivial task. As already said, much better to limit folk to a more obvious construction spreadsheet with fancy reporting and display tools, but lies, damned lies and statistics ? :D
Since a corporate database can contain sensitive or 'expert' business success information, closed construction is understandable, but desktop query-only tools can help. :cool:
An OpenOffice or OO fan ever since I found that Writer could read and output Word files better than Word itself, I have found its PDF output is great for distributing information 'as created'. Whether series 3 will succeed in providing effective PDF editing is a moot point. :Whistling:
For me, the 'grey area' is contact information, diary and email tools. (I'm still not happy with Thunderbird + Lightning.) :rolleyes:

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

ricedg — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:38:25 GMT

[quote]such a move would be economically practical in the current climate[/quote]

Just shows they really haven't thought this through.
Probably because they have no idea at all about all the things we have discussed, few people outside of the industry do.
And I guess that applies to any industry, but everyone has an opinion on IT because they have a PC at home :P

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

wyliecoyoteuk — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:31:07 GMT

[quote][b]Tom Morton (24/09/2008)[/b][hr]I suspect O2007 will win: at the end of the day it is a more stable, better equipped and easier to use product. :)
[/quote]
Not really, most of the changes appear cosmetic,and many are extremely confusing, As a design, it's a dog's dinner IMHO.
It will win because you can't buy 2003.
[quote]
I think the advantages in speed, in terms of how fast someone can work, will tip the balance.
[/quote]
People said the same about personalised menus...anyone seen them lately?
Personally, so far it just slows me down, especially Outlook and Acess (which seems the most unstable app)[quote]

However I do agree retraining would be a pain..

That said retraining current staff would suck but future generations of Staff could well be trained in Office 2007 (and require training in Office 2003........).[/quote]
By which time office 2010 will have changed the interface again. :P[quote]

My comments were probably directed more at home users (and hence it being off topic :P)

I think for businesses O2007 is one of those maybe/maybe no decisions. There are some strong cases for upgrading, but probably not yet strong enough :)
[/quote]
Our "strong case" is that as MS partners, we get 10 licenses free, but it is not popular with those that have it, and general adoption in big business and govt will be slow because of retraining and compatability issues.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

rickonnye — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:42:11 GMT

Referring to my original post please see copy of my 'first' reply from a political party on this subject. This is from the Green Party. Caroline Lucas MEP

'Dear Rickon,

Thank you for your email about open source software, which Caroline has asked me to respond to on her behalf.

Greens here in the UK and in the European Parliament have given full and continued support to the promotion of open source software. We are currently campaigning for all MEPs to sign up to a written declaration (similar to an Early Day Motion in Westminster) that calls on the European Parliament to switch to a freeware operating system. As you recognise, such a move would be economically practical in the current climate, as well as a matter of principle. So, Caroline would certainly back a switch by the UK government and, as she herself has no direct influence as an MEP, would encourage you to lobby your MP about this. Clearly, if the written declaration is successful, and it needs the support of more than half of MEPs to become European Parliament policy, it will also serve to illustrate to member states like the UK that open source software can meet their needs.

In 2005, the Green Group played an instrumental role in ensuring that the European Commission’s plans to introduce software patents were thrown out, arguing that they posed an unacceptable threat to the development of open source software. You can find out more about the campaign at http://www.greens-efa.org/cms/default/rubrik/8/8207.save_our_software@en.htm

Whilst the immediate threat to open source software has declined, Caroline is still actively involved in ensuring that other legislation does not curtail the industry. For example, the proposed legislation on telecommunications contains some recommendations that might have a negative impact on open source’s development. As a result, the Greens are seeking to amend the proposed text and send a clear signal to the Commission about Parliament’s commitment to open source. Caroline is also personally committed to using freeware wherever possible in her offices and we have recently redesigned our website using open source software.

Thank you for taking the time to write to Caroline and you can read more about her work at www.carolinelucasmep.org.uk

Kind regards,

Cath.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

Tom Morton — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 08:36:36 GMT

I suspect O2007 will win: at the end of the day it is a more stable, better equipped and easier to use product. :)

I think the advantages in speed, in terms of how fast someone can work, will tip the balance.

However I do agree retraining would be a pain..

That said retraining current staff would suck but future generations of Staff could well be trained in Office 2007 (and require training in Office 2003........).

My comments were probably directed more at home users (and hence it being off topic :P)

I think for businesses O2007 is one of those maybe/maybe no decisions. There are some strong cases for upgrading, but probably not yet strong enough :)

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

ricedg — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 23:47:54 GMT

Unashamed double post (if it turns out to be).

Tom,
[quote]Because it's M$ everyone moans about the new Office - it's amusing. They try to actually evolve somethign and they are slated. Actually I do agree: in an office 2007 is a bit of a steep learning curve: but ONLY (IMO) because everyone is used to 2003. [/quote]

I do agree with the sentiments of the first sentence, however I believe you just countered your own arguement in the second sentence, and also proved a point about any wholesale change at all.

People are resistant to change, but in my experience they get over it very quickly when they see the benefits.
I'm going to rattle on about our change of printers from a mish mash to a properly supported (in every sense) solution and free advertising for Wylie (not that I think we use use his company :D it's Ikon BTW Wylie).

All I got was complaints about the ancient printers being unreliable.
They were all different (apart form all being HP) and used different toners etc. which made the jobs of the people who looked after the consumables a chore. (We have a mountain of toner stock that is going on E-Bay right now - for charity and BAE Systems will match every penny we make).
Until we said they were all going, then you'd think we were selling their Grandmothers!

After only 1 day and some quick training (10 mins in groups of 5) they can see the benefits.
They go like lightning, they are all scanners too (email the scans to yourself as PDFs) and even after only a week the projection is that the savings we'll make due to automatic duplexing will save a whole trees worth of paper this year (defence bods can be tree huggers too :D)
Consumables are easy to change and only a phone call away - marvellous!

This may seem like I'm on your side with change, but you know I'm not :D
No-one can see the beneifits of O2007 because it does nothing they couldn't do before.
It will take us a lot longer than 10 mins in groups of 5 just to show them where the things are now to do what they did.
I think goimg to OO would be easier on the retraininng front (thst could be 10 mins in groups of 5, or 50 in a meeting room with a whiteboard), but then there's the question of can OO wupport the integration we have with O2003.
I honestly don't know the answer, but if it is no then the costs of retaining to O2007 may well be cheaper.
Jury's out on that one.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

ricedg — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 23:18:56 GMT

In 2014 the hardware will be so clapped out it won't run anything reliably.
Just take the MTBF of a hard drive - they don't last that long.
Even the mighty Seagate only go to 5 years warranty, and getting a free replacement under warranty means nothing compared to the nause of having to replace the thing.
Multiply that enmasse on a big estate and you have a logistical nightmare with all the costs related to it.
The biggest cost is labour, and no warranty covers that, unless you buy onsite of course but that will include the labour costs anyway!

We have just had some MFD printers installed (a la Wylie) and have been told if the HDDs crap out due to user error i.e inappropraite switching off and on again, the replacement costs will run into hundred of pounds!
Probably an empty(ish) threat to scare the users off doing it, but the MFD provider will not just be looking at the cost of the HDD (£30) but also the cost of prepping it up, sending an emgineer out and reconfiguring the printer to how it was before.
Actually I can see how that does add up to hundreds of quids.

The same thing applies to a PC.
You don't just slap a (may be) free replacement in and off it goes.
It takes at least 2 hours to rebuild a PC even with a totally slick operation.
Factor data recovery into that and you're looking at half a day at least per PC.

I'll ask a question from different angle:
How many peole here are running PCs from 2002, and what would the advice be for anyone wanting to run modernish (not Vista) software on such a machine?
Never mind can I reliably run software that will exist in 4 years from now, which is the average lifespan on a "corporate" PC.
In your case GN2 that's 6 years from now!

Being able to run some versions of Autocad in Wine is interesting, but the pressure is on right now to move to the latest version as the current one we are using (LT 2006) is already long in the tooth feature wise apparently.
I'm no engineer so I can't comment. but my customers are and they say it's so.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

Tom Morton — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 23:00:02 GMT

Because it's M$ everyone moans about the new Office - it's amusing. They try to actually evolve somethign and they are slated :P

Actually I do agree: in an office 2007 is a bit of a steep learning curve: but ONLY (IMO) because everyone is used to 2003.

A new PC user would IMO find 2007 a dream (and then show them 2003 and they would laugh).

Somehow I took to the new office very well: I find it intuitive and the options a lot less deeply hidden than they were. I especially like the context sensitive tools. And how it works so smoothly etc etc etc.

We use it at work because the PDF converter is beaten only by using Adobe's product itself :P

But anyway - back on topic ;D

BTW I agree on the outlook front - in the office we use a custom built App we call SyncFusion [and yes, I know there is already an app about called that, not my finest hour :P] which handles calendars, email and external interfacing [booking and so on].. we had some temps who worked for a week a little while back (a month or so) - at first they were like "WTF" (not being techies; just office "grunts") but after a day or so we already had comments like "wow I wish everyone used somethign like this".

On that topic: there is a LOT to be said for in-house systems. Not quite at the level that Dave is talking - and certainly not for the remote stuff, but for email and task management and support it would be nice to see a GLOBAL standard & interface so everyone could make their own tools (or buy a commercial one) and they all just interfaced properly (even to the point that you could use different desktop clients/viewers with the same server).

But that's going even more off topic sorry :P

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

gn2 — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:43:52 GMT

What about the costs of new hardware to run the next generation of MS OS?

In the organisation that I work for there are many thousands of PC's and laptops running Xp.

in 2014, which isn't too far away, they will all have to be replaced as they definitely will never run Vista.

So as I see it there are two options, migrate to an OS that will work on the existing hardware or buy new hardware.

As for Autocad, some versions of it will run in Wine.
[url]http://wiki.jswindle.com/index.php/AutoCad[/url]

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

ricedg — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:37:12 GMT

Damn my doing long edits :D

Tom, as you can see (if you scroll back) I am totally with Wylie on O2007.
Apart from you ;) I don't know anyone that truely likes 2007.
probably it does what you want a lot slicker, but I'd venture to suggest that what you get up to isn't what the average Joe does, also you're "into" the IT World and more likely to embrace such things.

Your average slack jawed user (God I hope none of my customers are reading this) just isn't.
They find the ribbon totally confusing, as they do the collapsing menus.
Where is that option? It was there last time I looked? DAVE!!!!
Click on the funny blue arrow at the bottom - Ahh there it is!
I'd laugh but I find myself in the same predicament, usually with that other abomination called Outlook.

Thank God Royal Mail (where I come from and still have strong links to) and CSC (my employer) use Lotus.
Lotus has it's foibles, but as an industrial strength collaboration app it knocks Outlook into a cocked hat.

End of my rant :P

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

MartenReed — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:17:04 GMT

On this topic of suites, I have a question.

Considering the rate at which hardware improves, why do all suites feel really slow and bloated?

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

Tom Morton — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:07:13 GMT

[quote]
One of our salesmen complained about only having OOo on his laptop, In the end we gave him 2007 (no licences for 2003 or XP) to shut him up!. After a week, he's asked for OOo back [Angry]
[/quote]

I can't imagine why! Certainly office 2003 is leaps and bounds better than OO. 2007 *is* different but if you get used to it it is an absolutely great tool. I write quite a lot of documentation and other documents and Office 2007 has increased my productivity.

Open Office is a another example of Open Source software losing it's way totally and not focusing on core features and the end user.

End Off Topic Rant :P

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

ricedg — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:57:37 GMT

ED: No, not the cloud as in internet based, intranet based.
Doesn't necessarily have to be thin client, but thinner most probably.
But that's another whole arguement in itself.

The front end our Oracle developers write to is the browser via Java.
There's lots of "dashboards" to give management a quick and easy overview, then drill down into the detail.
It's also the front end to a shared data environment (but not THE document repository) and hosts some of the tools I use, such as our problem ticket management, asset register and IT knowledge base.
Other features of the Oracle Collaboration Suite let users create semi-permanent shared data environments of their own http://tinyurl.com/4wdhof

It's a lot better than having big F&P server file dumping grounds, which are rarely managed properly by the creators.
We're trying phase our F&P server out, but it's a real mare to do it.
Shared areas have a maximum size and a defined lifespan (that's set by the user but never indefinite) and are automatically cleared out when the lifespan is reached.
That concentrates the mind on publishing douments properly in the offical document repository :P
The problem ticket management is transparent to all, so that concentrates my mind :)

We also make use of Citrix for some of the more esotric apps.
All this must be accessable (over ultra secure links) by the Alliance partners (and their sub-contractors) I mentioned , whose IT strategy we have no control over.
However they are all broadly going to have the same toolsets as the same documents obviously have to be accessed by all.

Not at all like a big home network is it? ;)

EDIT - I can't begin to describe how much I despise O2007, and the "collapsing menus" in O2003.
Persoanlly I use OO or Star Office at home and install it on any PC I build.
Usual reaction is OMG is not MS Office, soon quelled when they use it.

At work we did have some issues moving from Word 2000 to Word 2003, even though the format is allegedly the same.
Opening and saving the offending docs in Wordpad (of all things) sorted it out (it was something in the file headers), but TBH it was very small scale.
Moving the lot to ODF - no thanks.
There will be some real issues doing that, and I have no offical count of the numbers of documents published in the offical document repositiry, but they are hundreds of thousands most certainly.
There's 300GB in the F&P dumping ground, but my guess is that 95% of them could be trashed without any impact at all.
The trick is identifiying the crucial 5%...
If the Carrier sinks on sea trials :w00t:, someone is going to want blood and the offending design decision could have been made 10 years previously to the event.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

wyliecoyoteuk — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:37:22 GMT

Phew! this has been quite a thread!
Interesting input from everyone, and no mud slinging :)

Personally, I can use Vista (although I'm not fond of it), once our GPs have stripped it bare.

But I absolutely hate Office 2007.
There is a lot of retraining needed just to use basic functions.
And when you finally find where they've hidden something, Often under a heading like "trust centre" or hidden behind the tiny button at the bottom of the "Home" menu), it is exactly the same dialogue, with exactly the same options (except, usually, the one you are looking for).

Despite forcing myself to use it on my desktop PC,I still find it time wasting and user-hostile.
As for access 2007,it is worse than ever.We have one minor application we use it for (exporting a monthly fax run for meters), but ODBC keeps crashing it :(

One of our salesmen complained about only having OOo on his laptop, In the end we gave him 2007 (no licences for 2003 or XP) to shut him up!. After a week, he's asked for OOo back :angry:

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

EdP — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:16:26 GMT

[quote]the browser as the front end to everything[/quote]
Cloud computing/Thin Clients I presume?

Interesting comment - I've got to say that the Fortune 100 company I retired from would have a fit at the mere thought of someone else potentially having access to [u]any[/u] of their data in any shape or form. If that particular company ever went 'cloud' it would be in their own personal rainstorm driven by their own hardened mainframe(s)!

I could also see security/data access control being an issue with most Government Organizations around the world.

[EDIT] While Access was on the banned list, we did have SQL-like tools for the Auditors, we even let them loose (reluctantly) on live data at times! Business Information Systems with historical data extracts and some query/data extract/modeling tools were also being made available to the Financial Analysts when I left.

RE: Should The UK Government Use Open Source (Linux) Software?

MartenReed — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:09:57 GMT

I've not read all this, too much reading for me ;)

But I'll agree with Dave. Access isn't a nice piece of software at the best of times, and spreadsheets are much more functional.

:)