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RE: The Windows License Situation

snakelegsoup — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:24:38 GMT

Well, this thread has grown way past what I would have predicted when I asked the original question. And in an interesting way too. Thanks to all who have taken the trouble to respond.

An interesting point that has been raised in the discussion is the question of 'no longer supported' OS's and activation. What happens in this case? I really need to do a bit of reading in the ULA! I am imagining a situation where a seller could say,

[i]I don't support this software anymore.
I don't issue activation keys either.
So, you will now have to buy a new license for the new version or everything else you own goes down the tubes.
[/i]
I mean, when 'end of support day' comes round, what REALLY happens to someone who has a hard drive failure and has to re-install everything?

As I say though, I should read the ULA. Perhaps I will take my laptop with me next time I go to the small room...

Once more, thanks to all who responded to my question...

Allan.....

RE: The Windows License Situation

Jason — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 22:47:48 GMT

I have given my reason to you in a PM (as you know). If you want to take it further, please contact MM's editor.

RE: The Windows License Situation

darrelljon — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 22:30:21 GMT

[quote][b]Jason (25/07/2008)[/b][hr]CONTENT DELETED.

YOU KNOW BETTER THAN TO ADVOCATE PIRACY ON THESE FORUMS.[/quote]
I am surprised and dispute this assertion.

RE: The Windows License Situation

wyliecoyoteuk — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:36:49 GMT

[quote][b]spike09 (25/07/2008)[/b][hr]has spare xp home licenses here and local supplier has plenty, at work we are still getting support for win 2k nice to know they don't want to pee off the UK military just yet ;)[/quote]

Depends a lot on your clout, Windows 3.1 embedded only just got dumped, mainly because a lot of Xerox copiers ran it :)
Big customers get support long after the little man has lost it.

With embedded OSes and critical systems especially, , 10 years is not long enough.
(and win2k was my favourite MS OS, actually)

RE: The Windows License Situation

wyliecoyoteuk — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:22:28 GMT

[quote][b]BJM (25/07/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]wyliecoyoteuk (25/07/2008)[/b][hr]

Actually, I think that even then there are limits.
In theory, you can move retail XP to a new machine as long as you have removed it from the first.
In practice, I would be surprised if you can activate it infinite times.
Plus, once XP is no longer supported, I expect activation will eventually cease to work, full stop.

Vista retail limits you to 1 transfer of license only.

Of course if it is games you're after, you'll probably have to cough up for a license, if you can find somebody that is still selling XP, that is.[/quote]

Other than anti-M$ biased FUD, do you have any evidence to support those statements?[/quote]

Only common sense, personal experience, and Microsoft press releases :D

For example, in theory, you could install XP , activate it, disconnect it from the internet, install it again and insist that you have removed it from the previous machine, and repeat.
I think that it is common sense to suggest that there would be a limit beyond which MS may choose to disbelieve you.

Discontinued products eventually cease to be activated- activation is a lot older than XP.
Try activating an old copy of some software products that cost a LOT more than Windows XP (and I have, in one case, the software cost £1200 and was 4 years old) - the server is no longer available (even though the software is still on sale in a newer incarnation).
(PM me if you want a list) :)
MS will not support XP for ever- but they never said that they would, [url=http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9074720]did they?[/url]

The Vista activation limit was widely reported [url=http://www.techweb.com/wire/software/193300234]example here [/url]- unless they recanted on that, but it is still in their EULA, last time I looked, and it is present in the documentation we receive as partners. (It may surprise you to know that I actually sell MS products on behalf of my company. Although where possible, we offer Open-source options too.)

I think it is plain where the true bias here lies.

EDIT: MS did, apparently backtrack on the Vista limit, after industry protest, but it was too late to remove it from the EULA. not sure if it still applies to home editions or not.

RE: The Windows License Situation

spike09 — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:02:53 GMT

has spare xp home licenses here and local supplier has plenty, at work we are still getting support for win 2k nice to know they don't want to pee off the UK military just yet ;)

RE: The Windows License Situation

wyliecoyoteuk — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:55:42 GMT

[quote][b]Slipstreem (25/07/2008)[/b][hr]A quick Google reveals that many suppliers still have it in stock. We're here to guide people, not to misguide them. The OP is hardly gong to deliberately wait until all stocks are exhausted before he goes looking for one, is he? He needs an answer fot the here-and-now, not a prediction of the future.

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:[/quote]

Just sensible warning that if he wants to buy it, to buy it soon.
I was only giving advice based on my personal experience.

To be honest, I assumed that stocks would be running out by now, but then maybe some suppliers deliberately stocked up, anticipating demand after the MS deadline.
I know that in the business channel, XP is already drying up, but that is a bigger market than the home one.

RE: The Windows License Situation

Slipstreem — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:49:25 GMT

A quick Google reveals that many suppliers still have it in stock. We're here to guide people, not to misguide them. The OP is hardly gong to deliberately wait until all stocks are exhausted before he goes looking for one, is he? He needs an answer fot the here-and-now, not a prediction of the future.

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:

RE: The Windows License Situation

wyliecoyoteuk — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:36:15 GMT

[quote][b]Slipstreem (25/07/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]wyliecoyoteuk (25/07/2008)[/b][hr]...if you can find somebody that is still selling XP, that is.[/quote]
I'm having trouble finding anywhere that [i][b]isn't[/b][/i] still selling XP. You seem to have a very biased attitude when it comes to M$ OSes. :)

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:[/quote]

I don't see how pointing out that XP is no longer "officially" available is "very biased"?
I was merely warning the op that it is not going to be around for much longer.

Also, depends who your suppliers are.
Dell for example, will only sell you XP Pro as an extra cost downgrade from Vista, i.e. you have to buy Vista with the PC, and the XP downgrade is £10 extra.
They still have XP pro upgrade available at present-for £176!
Obviously some suppliers have existing stocks, but these will not be replenished.
XP home will continue to be available as OEM-only for "low power" Laptop PCs until June 2010.
(or so I have been advised by Microsoft-My company is a member of the Microsoft Partner Program)

At least 3 of my suppliers no longer supply any version of XP, but then I am buying for a business, so they never supplied XP home, anyway.

I would think that jumping on anything that could be remotely construed as "anti-MS", even when it is well meant advice, is more biased than my original post :P

Edited: to change "low power PCs " to "low power Laptop PCs" -apparently Desktop PCs are specifically excluded.

RE: The Windows License Situation

BJM — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:15:57 GMT

[quote][b]wyliecoyoteuk (25/07/2008)[/b][hr]

Actually, I think that even then there are limits.
In theory, you can move retail XP to a new machine as long as you have removed it from the first.
In practice, I would be surprised if you can activate it infinite times.
Plus, once XP is no longer supported, I expect activation will eventually cease to work, full stop.
Vista retail limits you to 1 transfer of license only.

Of course if it is games you're after, you'll probably have to cough up for a license, if you can find somebody that is still selling XP, that is.[/quote]

Other than anti-M$ biased FUD, do you have any evidence to support those statements?

RE: The Windows License Situation

Slipstreem — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:47:06 GMT

[quote][b]wyliecoyoteuk (25/07/2008)[/b][hr]...if you can find somebody that is still selling XP, that is.[/quote]
I'm having trouble finding anywhere that [i][b]isn't[/b][/i] still selling XP. You seem to have a very biased attitude when it comes to M$ OSes. :)

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:

RE: The Windows License Situation

wyliecoyoteuk — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:41:37 GMT

[quote][b]ricedg (25/07/2008)[/b][hr]Nothing stopping anyone buying a "full" licence, then you can transfer it as many times as you like.
Of course it costs more...[/quote]

Actually, I think that even then there are limits.
In theory, you can move retail XP to a new machine as long as you have removed it from the first.
In practice, I would be surprised if you can activate it infinite times.
Plus, once XP is no longer supported, I expect activation will eventually cease to work, full stop.
Vista retail limits you to 1 transfer of license only.

If you just want this PC for email, word-processing etc, and the web, try a Linux distribution, it won't cost you anything but time, and you may well find that you like it!
(plus you won't need a 3rd party firewall, antivirus, antispyware, no defrags, less reboots, etc...)

Of course if it is games you're after, you'll probably have to cough up for a license, if you can find somebody that is still selling XP, that is.

RE: The Windows License Situation

Alpha Channel — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:33:10 GMT

Or certain areas of the body being used as CD racks :D

RE: The Windows License Situation

darrelljon — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:00:19 GMT

CONTENT DELETED.

YOU KNOW BETTER THAN TO ADVOCATE PIRACY ON THESE FORUMS.

RE: The Windows License Situation

-Wiz!- — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:48:19 GMT

ignore me...:hehe:

RE: The Windows License Situation

Jason — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:45:33 GMT

That's all well and good, but if MS refuse to activate the OS if you put it on a different system, what are you going to do about it?

RE: The Windows License Situation

darrelljon — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:43:24 GMT

[quote]"The enforceability of an EULA depends on several factors, one of them being the court in which the case is heard. Some courts that have addressed the validity of the shrinkwrap license agreements have found some EULAs to be invalid, characterizing them as contracts of adhesion, unconscionable, and/or unacceptable" - Wikipedia-Software license agreement[/quote]

[quote]"There is actually a decision by the Finnish Supreme Court on EULAs. Their view was that when a consumer goes to a store and buys a product, they buy it and not license. And as such all EULAs are categorically not valid here." - OSNews[/quote]

[quote]Someone mentioned Finland. I know EULAs were tested in Danish law too, and rejected because they had to be presented prior to purchase and because mouse click are not binding signatures in Danish contract law.

I think I remember them being rejected in German supreme court too, and several other continental EU countries, but I don't have the reference.- OSNews[/quote]

[quote]"Well, Microsoft is not entitled to decide under which terms I can make tests, unless they own the test suite. To the extent it isn't the case they have no legal right to those terms, leaving the EULA pretty much void in Denmark (business as usual).

The only thing left for MS is the right to distribute Windows. But that's the only thing they can deny me in Denmark, and since the law doesn't grant me that right MS haven't denied me anything anyway. " - OSNews[/quote]

[quote]"In most European countries contract laws require a handwritten signature of both parties and the stipulations in the contract need to be balanced, i.e. not skewed heavily in favor of one party and detrimental to the other. As such, click-through EULA's fall short of the legal requirements of most contract laws in European states and are mostly non-enforceable." - OSNews[/quote]

RE: The Windows License Situation

ricedg — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:10:18 GMT

Nothing stopping anyone buying a "full" licence, then you can transfer it as many times as you like.
Of course it costs more...

RE: The Windows License Situation

bigdaddy — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:29:02 GMT

Again welcome to the madhouse.:D
I am with Tippers on this one. When I needed to replace the hard drive in my wife's lappy the Acer recovery disk refused to work. I installed Gutsy Gibbon and it made the system much faster and easier for her to use. (She just sends the "odd" email and does a little online shopping as well as letter writing). She has not noticed any real difference between Linux and Window$.
The GG quietly updated itself to Hardy Heron one day when she was using it and, again, she noticed nothing.:)

RE: The Windows License Situation

Tippon — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:22:29 GMT

[quote][b]Bruce R (23/07/2008)[/b][hr]...but genuine hard luck stories have been known to move the Microsoft 'Re-Activation' mountain. ;)[/quote]

Unfortunately, that's very unlikely in this case, as it's a completely different system. If, for example, it was a desktop system and the motherboard had to be replaced due to failure, then you would probably be in luck, as I was when I had to repair my fathers system.

One thing to remember is that you don't actually buy a copy of Windows, you buy a licence. In this instance, the licence is for use on one particular system and expires with that system.

Snakelegsoup - Have you considered trying Linux? Depending on what you do with the system, you may not actually need Windows.

P.S. Welcome to the madhouse :)

RE: The Windows License Situation

Bruce R — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:46:54 GMT

The specific terms can vary slightly between different EULAs, but effectively they are a contract that you or your agent (the installer) has signed up to by clicking on one of those little 'Agree' to proceed buttons. :)
Note that while the text in that little box can run to many pages, it can actually contain some helpful words, but is very unlikely to agree to re-use on a completely different PC or hard drive, but genuine hard luck stories have been known to move the Microsoft 'Re-Activation' mountain. ;)

RE: The Windows License Situation

Spedley — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:21:55 GMT

It's one of the biggest cons going as far as I'm concerened.

While the spare parts from you old car fit your new car the licence says you have to buy new ones.
It doesn't work in the real world but unforunately the law is in their favour.

EULAs seems to just say anything in them (i.e. if this program doesn't work and breaks something of yours then tough) and they get away with it.

RE: The Windows License Situation

-Wiz!- — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:57:14 GMT

Welcome to the forum. :)

RE: The Windows License Situation

CaptainCAD — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:37:18 GMT

The previous machine used an OEM version of Windows XP Home Edition, (due to it only having a recovery disk), this means that the OS belongs only with that particular hardware and use of it elsewhere would be a breach of the E.U.L.A.

The Windows License Situation

snakelegsoup — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:21:53 GMT

A few years back I bought a laptop machine - it has served me well and has traveled the world with me. But, now it is dead. It could be brought back to life but actually I want to replace it with a more up to date one. Obviously the machine came with an operating system. (XP Home) I am just about to complete building a desk top machine.

OK, that's the back ground. Now here is the question.

Where do I stand, in legal terms, regarding the re-use of the operating system from my laptop? I will not be resurrecting the laptop - in fact, it has already been partly stripped for parts.

The reason that this question has come up is that I was not supplied with a system disk when I bought the laptop, only a 'recovery disk' which wants to install various equipment specific software. This will not work with my new system.

If I can find a way around this installation problem, do I actually HAVE a license to do so? In other words, does my license to use the OS extend to a different computer? (Given that it will be on one machine only)

Opinions would be interesting but if anyone knows a definitive legal answer that would be even more so.