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RE: Percentage Problem

Phitore — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:09:25 GMT

[quote][b]digger (13/01/2008)[/b][hr]Most sportsmen{etc} reckon they give 120%[/quote]

They give 100% and the steroids give then an extra 20%. Makes sence to me.

Back to the OP, any form of growth, be it speed, temp, time, money can go over 100%.
Earn £10k in 2006 then earn £30k 2007 = 200% increase in earnings, fact!

RE: Percentage Problem

Basil — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:52:00 GMT

[b]Slipstreem (14/01/2008)[/b][hr]Alcohol proof is measured in degrees, [i]not[/i] in percent.

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:

Offically the UK uses the ABV or alcohol by volume system (EU standard) which states percentage alcohol by volume at 20C but the degrees proof are also used.
Reagent grade and industrial alcohols are always be graded with a percentage but drinking alcohol may use the traditional degrees.

RE: Percentage Problem

Slipstreem — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:35:32 GMT

Alcohol proof is measured in degrees, [i]not[/i] in percent.

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:

RE: Percentage Problem

Mathusalah — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:24:23 GMT

[quote][b]digger (13/01/2008)[/b][hr]Most sportsmen{etc} reckon they give 120%[/quote]

120% proof in the samples?

RE: Percentage Problem

oldphart — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:21:09 GMT

Just to make things even more cranky, if you want to work on aircraft in most of the civilised world, you have to read, write and speak in English. I won't quote chapter and verse at the mo' as my books on Simplified English for the aircraft trade is not "readily to hand", as the expression goes.

RE: Percentage Problem

digger — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:46:23 GMT

Most sportsmen{etc} reckon they give 120%

RE: Percentage Problem

lasher — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:32:37 GMT

Ah Tippon this may be so, but in keeping with the thread can you express those figures as percentages of population?? ;)

RE: Percentage Problem

Tippon — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:16:35 GMT

Going by that wikipedia link, there are 365 million French language speakers and up to 500 million people with a significant knowledge of the language, but there are 1051 million speakers of Mandarin, which is almost three times as many.

Spanish would appear to be the 'best' second language to learn with up to 400 million native speakers and another 100 million speaking it as a second language. It would also give a good basis for many of the South American dialects. The Spanish were major league conquerors back in their time, and the language still has a huge worldwide influence today.

RE: Percentage Problem

gn2 — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:29:02 GMT

[quote][b]ASheridan (09/01/2008)[/b][hr]
We get taught French at schools, when the obvious choice is Chinese.[/quote]

Nonsense.
Chinese may be spoken by a large number of people but not in many countries.
French is a more global language than Chinese will ever be.
In fact there are more people in the world with French as a second language than Chinese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers

RE: Percentage Problem

ASheridan — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:24:21 GMT

I think the whole education system needs a look at. I mean, what is the point of teaching kids all the intricate parts of a plant down to the cell level, when will this ever get used in the real world?! That time could be better spent getting the pupils using things like percentages and ratios, which they can then go on to use in the bookies! Or maybe, just maybe, they would teach kids properly about statistics. The number of times I've seen kids these days listen to every little "statistic" on tv and take it as absolute truth. I think Mark Twain had it nailed!

We get taught French at schools, when the obvious choice is Chinese. Don't believe me? More people speak Chinese as a mother-tongue language than any other, and it is the second most known language in the world.

In RE (Religious Education) they showed us a few ancient videos (and these were ancient back when I was at school, and I can imagine the same stuff is being shown now!), that did little to explain what the beliefs of each one was about (and I was a little miffed we never got taught about the way of the Jedi ;) )

RE: Percentage Problem

MartenReed — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:32:40 GMT

[quote][b]bigdaddy (09/01/2008)[/b][hr]Marten I learned that 60 years ago in the junior school.:hehe::hehe:[/quote]

Yes, but these days it's forgotten within days :P

RE: Percentage Problem

bigdaddy — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:21:44 GMT

Marten I learned that 60 years ago in the junior school.:hehe::hehe:

RE: Percentage Problem

MartenReed — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 16:07:15 GMT

I know percentages can be hard to calculate, so this is the advice I give to someone:

Take the number you want a percentage of, divide it by 100, and then times by the percentage you want.

So, for example, 9% of 12 would be (12/100)*9 :)

Works like a charm!

RE: Percentage Problem

gn2 — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:00:46 GMT

Pecentages are arithmetic anyway, which was taught as a separate subject when I was at school, of that I'm 150% certain.
To argue that you can't have a percentage over 100% is like saying that all ratios must be expressed as x:1

RE: Percentage Problem

DerekMort — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:11:49 GMT

[quote][b]Jason (03/12/2007)[/b][hr]Bring back Johnny Ball![/quote]

YES!!!

As for the standard of learning at primary level, we help our kids with their homework, not giving answers but giving help where they dont understand a subject. Its a little odd to see the differance in teaching since I went to school, often though the method we show them is easier for them to understand. Then again, how much of it is the teachers fault, if more parents took time to assist their kids maybe it would help?

During our summer holiday in France we showed our 8 year old how to work out the differance between kilometres and miles. He was soon working out how many miles to our next destination, or what the speed would be in England. Not a particularly difficult task, but he was applying this and doing the sums mentally and we felt pretty chuffed he picked it up so quickly.

Lets not all blame the teachers, parents have their part to play in education too. From some of the posts above it seems taht those that had an early hadn and example from parents were much better prepared for school.

RE: Percentage Problem

Jason — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:54:18 GMT

Bring back Johnny Ball!

RE: Percentage Problem

MartenReed — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:25:13 GMT

I was head of my class at my first primary school. Mind you, it was a specialist needs school (I don't have them personally, it's the only school my mum knew of as she'd only moved up a year or two before I was spawned), and she'd taught me to read, spell and do very, very basic maths by the age of two (I was also brought up by my very clever nan, and Countdown).

Personally, I think the lower IQ levels that seem to appear more often are cause by this filth that TV Mums let their children watch. I was brought up on proper kids shows, so Thomas, Fireman Sam, Postman Pat, Magic Roundabout etc, and they're quite good for teaching kids words and things, but ever since the rubbish that was the Tellytubbies, we've had nothing but patronising tripe where the characters don't speak English properly, the maths doesn't exceed counting past 100 at maximum, and other things.

Get the good kids programs back on TV, get the mums/fathers/grandparents spending more time teaching the child etc. As much as I love them, I think video games and computers are starting to become a reason too, but if in moderation, no harm can come :)

RE: Percentage Problem

bigdaddy — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:18:31 GMT

Back before the last ice age, my old mum taught me to read write and count before I started school. She left school at 14 and was not what one might call educated. This was at a time when the lovely Adolph was hurling destruction from the skies, she was pregnant and pop was in the RAF.
In primary school I was taught to do mental arithmetic and I still use it on a daily basis, even beating Miss Vorderman.
Later on in primary school we were taught simple concepts such as Pythagoras, the more difficult coming later in secondary grammar school.
When my son was doing his "A" levels I noted that work he was doing in the sixth form was at the level I was doing in second year maths.
Even now I add up the prices for my magazines and newspapers in my head whilst waiting in the queue. Normally giving the correct money, much to the amazement of the cashier. Nowadays without a calculator people are totally stumped. ;)

RE: Percentage Problem

MartenReed — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:03:45 GMT

[quote][b]Tom Morton (03/12/2007)[/b][hr]They have to follow the same curriculum?? hmm that's annoying.

There must however be public schools with decent thinking teachers.... :)

[quote]And you stand a good chance of being unable to interact properly with "ordinary" people.[/quote]
That's true- although it's not like it used to be I dont think. A scary number of my Uni mates are public schooled.

[quote]But then I'm a left-wing hippy, so I would say that.[/quote]
No comment... ;) :P[/quote]

At my school now, probably a quarter of my physics and chemistry a-levels are revisits of stuff I did at GCSE, yet some people didn't do it. God knows how long we've spent on the equation V = I x R. It's easy to use, very simple, makes sense etc, yet my teacher sees the need to spend months on it. This isn't right at all.

My old school (a free grammar school) did mainly the same exams as others (i.e. used the OCR, AQA and Edexcel boards), but we had the option of a "Seperate Science", which meant 3 GCSEs in science, not two. And that isn't an option where I am now, and one of the science teachers told me and my friend it's because not enough of the pupils would be interested, and most aren't "clever" enough for it. That's not good enough, these kids deserve a chance to do 3 science GCSEs without having to move schools. The facilities are good enough for it, as are the staff, and judging by the size of the current science classes at A-Level, there are enough kids wanting to do it.

:)

RE: Percentage Problem

JamesW — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:56:42 GMT

Have two nice days!

'Math' and 'maths' are both abbreviations of mathematics, obv. 'Maths' is generally used in Britain, 'math' in america. A personal gripe, not a matter of principle.

When I was at primary school (some time during the last ice age), I asked around for a teacher who could explain Pythagoras' Theorem. I didn't find anyone.

The vogue for teaching mathS so that children 'understand the concept of number' and so forth is fine in principle, but it's faster to learn by rote and then to apply rote learning immediately, hoping that 'the concept of number' will become clear in time. A combination of methods wouldn't hurt, so that children have some way to apply theory before the next ice age sets in.

Learn it first, then understand...or understand it and then develop applications? Whatever works is the best answer. Being a zealot for either camp won't help the kids much.

RE: Percentage Problem

Tom Morton — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:28:35 GMT

They have to follow the same curriculum?? hmm that's annoying.

There must however be public schools with decent thinking teachers.... :)

[quote]And you stand a good chance of being unable to interact properly with "ordinary" people.[/quote]
That's true- although it's not like it used to be I dont think. A scary number of my Uni mates are public schooled.

[quote]But then I'm a left-wing hippy, so I would say that.[/quote]
No comment... ;) :P

RE: Percentage Problem

Jason — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:25:13 GMT

Public schools still have to work with the same curriculum, Tom, so you won't find anything greatly different there. And you stand a good chance of being unable to interact properly with "ordinary" people.

But then I'm a left-wing hippy, so I would say that. :)

RE: Percentage Problem

Tom Morton — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:20:12 GMT

Agreed about the poor level of primary teaching - my mother is a primary school teacher and some of the crud she teaches them for "numeracy and literacy" is appalling. Yet for some reason she cant understand why kids are entering secondary education barely able to read, write and add up (im not joking.. I did some work at my old secondary school teaching remedial math (;)) and the numbers needing the help was insane - maybe 80% of the year couldn't do basic algebra)

Many couldn't do their times tables properly. I was amazed - I even had to teach them that simple rules for the 9 times table. I asked my mother about it and she said "oh we cant teach times tables any more as it promotes bad learning.." (basically it is bad for them to memorize it... ???).

Looking at her yr3 maths teaching material they just have lots of pretty pictures to play around with :( no real numbers to speak of :(

Its sickening - if things dont improve there is no way I am entrusting any of my (future) childrens educations to a state school....

/rant

EDIT: oh math is actually an English word BTW :) sort of (or often thought of as) a colloquialism but more strictly a synonym of Mathematics :)

RE: Percentage Problem

Jason — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:10:28 GMT

That's one of the best responses I've read in some time.

Have a nice day. :)

RE: Percentage Problem

JamesW — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:05:26 GMT

Ideadhead - Welcome to the forum.

As a former college lecturer in GCSE maths, I blame the poor level of general numeracy on the historical lack of teachers at primary level and the reputation of the subject among GCSE students. They expect this vital and beneficial subject to be tedious for some reason, and they proceed to prove themselves correct, in the manner of teenagers everywhere.

In practice, I'm not against improper fractions being expressed as percentages. It doesn't indicate a lack of numeracy - there are far more important problems to worry about than the breach of a convention that nobody except you and the author of the book you cite supports. I'm delighted to say I've never read it.

PS. Unless you are really an american, I implore you not to use americanisms like 'math' or 'enough already', they make me shudder.

RE: Percentage Problem

keith — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:24:48 GMT

[quote][b]Slipstreem (02/12/2007)[/b][hr][quote][b]Mr A Hitler - Nuremberg (29/07/1939)[/b][hr]I want to improve the World and put an end to global poverty. I love fluffy kittens and like to help old people cross the road when I'm not working for free in the local charity shop or willingly giving the rest of my spare time to helping out at the local retired donkey sanctuary. I once donated all of my internal organs and limbs to a lepar in Nepal.[/quote]

Oops. Sorry! :blush:

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:[/quote]

crikey slippy .....have you discovered time travel to get hitler using the MM forums before the internet was invented. Or was this another german invention that the war put a stop too?:P

RE: Percentage Problem

04jmorri — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 07:37:51 GMT

[quote][b]Jason (02/12/2007)[/b][hr]You appear to have assigned a quotation to me that I never wrote! It wasn't my argument![/quote]

Oh Sorry, my apologies I meant to use the others guys quote but used your's by accident. LOL

Sorry my bad,
Jack

RE: Percentage Problem

MartenReed — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:19:34 GMT

[quote][b]Slipstreem (02/12/2007)[/b][hr]

Sieg Heil![/quote]

:P

RE: Percentage Problem

Slipstreem — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 20:14:35 GMT

[quote][b]Mr A Hitler - Nuremberg (29/07/1939)[/b][hr]I want to improve the World and put an end to global poverty. I love fluffy kittens and like to help old people cross the road when I'm not working for free in the local charity shop or willingly giving the rest of my spare time to helping out at the local retired donkey sanctuary. I once donated all of my internal organs and limbs to a lepar in Nepal.[/quote]

Oops. Sorry! :blush:

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:

RE: Percentage Problem

Jason — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 19:54:27 GMT

You appear to have assigned a quotation to me that I never wrote! It wasn't my argument!

RE: Percentage Problem

04jmorri — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 19:44:45 GMT

[quote][b]Jason (01/12/2007)[/b][hr][quote]When we have figures like 16,000% or 120% what do they really mean? They lie outside the recognised definition of percentage so are meaningless.[/quote]

They are used a lot in maths and are widely accepted.
A percentage larger than 100 could be seen as a percentage increase of an amount.
120% being a 20% increase of a amount.
Sorry if I've got the wrong idea about your argument.

Thanks,
Jack:)

RE: Percentage Problem

MartenReed — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 17:36:03 GMT

[quote][b]spike09 (01/12/2007)[/b][hr]perceived temperature is just an average even at -200 kelvin some water molecules will be evaporating:P[/quote]

Exactly :)

RE: Percentage Problem

spike09 — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:15:07 GMT

perceived temperature is just an average even at -200 kelvin some water molecules will be evaporating:P

RE: Percentage Problem

MartenReed — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:10:46 GMT

Water boils at 373K. Much more sense than 100 degrees C.

Temperature is a hard thing to grasp. Nothing is cold, it just has lower energy :)

RE: Percentage Problem

Jason — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:05:35 GMT

[quote]Kelvin for me[/quote]

Yeah, Kelvin Smith. Used to sit next to him.

RE: Percentage Problem

MartenReed — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 23:02:21 GMT

[quote][b]Slipstreem (01/12/2007)[/b][hr]All UK schools also teach the Celsius temperature scale upside down as well as making a bit of a pig's ear of percentages. Now that really bugs me because even the Met Office weather presenters get it wrong! :crazy:

0 Celsius = 100 Centigrade. 100 Celsius = 0 Centigrade.

That's the way it always has been and always will be, unless some nutter decides to turn the Centigrade scale upside down to match the original Celsius scale. :D

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:[/quote]

Kelvin for me :)

RE: Percentage Problem

isdaritden — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:57:47 GMT

5/1 fav wins the race,any money you put on that in my book = 500% mark up;)

john

RE: Percentage Problem

Slipstreem — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:49:18 GMT

All UK schools also teach the Celsius temperature scale upside down as well as making a bit of a pig's ear of percentages. Now that really bugs me because even the Met Office weather presenters get it wrong! :crazy:

0 Celsius = 100 Centigrade. 100 Celsius = 0 Centigrade.

That's the way it always has been and always will be, unless some nutter decides to turn the Centigrade scale upside down to match the original Celsius scale. :D

Cheers, Slipstreem. :cool:

RE: Percentage Problem

Tom Morton — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 18:29:04 GMT

120% (for example) is a recognised mathematical concept (I was pretty sure it was but i also I just checked with a mates girlfriend - doing a phd in mathematics :) - to be sure).

[quote]All percentages can be thought of as including or between 0 and 1 then just times by 100 - hey - is some one talking fractions [/quote]

Look at fractions.. 6/5's is perfectly valid... as is 120/100's. Percentage is (well was originally conceived as) a way of measuring relative-ness without all the annoying fraction-division confusion. It doesn't get taught properly at school level though - that I agree :)

RE: Percentage Problem

Spedley — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:13:51 GMT

I diasgree that percentages are only valid between 0 and 100. It's like saying that things can't be hotter than 100 degrees Celcius which is obviously wrong - liquid water can't exist [under normal circumstances] outside those limits but they still make sense.

I do find that 2000% is a silly scale and that 20 times is far more useful and I also think that differences can be confusing, i.e. 60% more or 160% of the original.

In my mind it's best to just not multiply it by 100 and leave it as 0.6 instead of 60% (percent meaning per one hundred or divide by 100 or /100)