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RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

asininity — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 11:50:39 GMT

If I force encryption for the whole stream and use the higher port number it seems to work a little better.

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

Tippon — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:22:48 GMT

[quote][b]asininity (04/07/2008)[/b][hr]Not trying to argue but didn't I mention this happens when the computer's directly connected to the internet. Wouldn't that rule out your point about an internal network?[/quote]

Sorry, that was my fault. I didn't explain myself very clearly. The fact that the network traffic was also slowing down was just meant as an example of how BT hammers everything. I've also had the same problem when connected directly to the internet.

[quote][b]asininity (04/07/2008)[/b][hr]I also capped the download and upload to 5kBs and it still happens. I'll try the higher port number but am not holding my breath.[/quote]

The higher port number might make a big difference, as BT uses port 6881 as standard, so ISP's block it, or restrict it. That won't affect your browsing though, just torrents. As mentioned, change the port, use port forwarding, and use QoS if it's available. The QoS setting made the biggest difference to me as far as browsing goes :)

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

asininity — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:06:56 GMT

Not trying to argue but didn't I mention this happens when the computer's directly connected to the internet. Wouldn't that rule out your point about an internal network? I also capped the download and upload to 5kBs and it still happens. I'll try the higher port number but am not holding my breath.

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

Tippon — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 20:09:48 GMT

[quote][b]asininity (04/07/2008)[/b][hr]...I understand BT is a resource hog no matter how fast its coming and going but baring in mind the direct download I mentioned can BT be requesting so much as to use the whole of my connection (Up to 4Mbits of it) to the point when I can't browse.[/quote]

Yes. That's what I was trying to get across in my earlier post. I used to have the 4 meg connection when I lived in Cardiff, and would get exactly the same problem, until I used the tweaks I mentioned earlier.

There was a network in the house, and we could barely access each other's systems, as BT was hammering the connection so much. That couldn't be affected by the ISP, as it's internal.

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

asininity — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 20:02:18 GMT

[quote][b]Tippon (03/07/2008)[/b]

They may be denying it because they're not doing it.

If you're only having the problems during peak hours, when there are lots more people online sharing the connection, and while they admit that traffic shaping is going on, then that suggests that in your area, they seem to be close to their capacity and are struggling. [/quote]

Remember that my connection is fine in peak hours unless I use bittorrent they can't start struggling for capacity as soon as I start BT and suddenly have enough, up to 4Mbits of it, when I stop. I'm not being funny but I pay for a 10Mbit connection for a reason and the reason I'm with virgin is because download limits aren't meant to exist, or thats what the advert said tut tut! I understand fair use etc and think to a certain extent its a good thing. I'd rather have less than I'm paying for because the ISP is stopping me than have less because some other guys getting it. But neither is ideal.

[quote][b]Davo1 (04/07/2008)[/b][hr]Here is virgins trafficing policy, pretty clear what they do, limit on daily download amaount then the speed shaping kicks in

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html[/quote]

Which is fine but it doesn't explain whats constantly going on with my connection. And it wouldn't be the first time an ISP has lied about speeds etc would it. I understand they traffic shape but even in peak I should expect to be able to a least browser web pages whilst downloading at a very slow rate whether its BT or direct downloads. The difference between a direct download and BT is disproportionate.

Dave I understand BT is a resource hog no matter how fast its coming and going but baring in mind the direct download I mentioned can BT be requesting so much as to use the whole of my connection (Up to 4Mbits of it) to the point when I can't browse. I'm not an expert but it doesn't add up unless BT is being specifically targeted and a blanket punishment is then put in place?

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

ricedg — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 19:30:29 GMT

I wasn't suggesting your router was at fault (if that's what you were thinking :D ).
It was to show what a terrible resource hog Bit Torrent is.

Believe me, if you were running an ISP you'd want it banned.
The problem is if people can't see with their own eyes what havoc is caused, they tend to think it doesn't exist.
Also some people seem to think they can do whatever they want on the internet and sod the consequences for anyone else.
It's someone else who should be sorting the "problem" and it had better not cost anything!
Not aimed at anyone here I hasten to add, we have a reasoned discussion about such things.

IMO UK Broadband is not as bad as it's often painted, it's certainly cheap.
But, like any resource it has it limits.
No one wants to pay to resolve the situation, so it will stay unresolved until someone does.

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

Davo1 — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:54:28 GMT

Here is virgins trafficing policy, pretty clear what they do, limit on daily download amaount then the speed shaping kicks in

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

Kumagoro — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 21:52:22 GMT

does forcing encryption make a difference? if it does then they are obviously targetting BT data

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

Tippon — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 21:43:58 GMT

[quote][b]asininity (03/07/2008)[/b][hr]My other problem is that they deny it.[/quote]

They may be denying it because they're not doing it.

If you're only having the problems during peak hours, when there are lots more people online sharing the connection, and while they admit that traffic shaping is going on, then that suggests that in your area, they seem to be close to their capacity and are struggling.

Although BT is downloading slowly, it's still sending dozens and dozens of requests to find more peers etc. and if anything, will slow your connection down more than when it's downloading at high speed, as it's got more work to do.

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

asininity — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 21:10:52 GMT

Sorry I should have mentioned in my first post that I tried behind a router and with a direct connection to the internet The same thing happens either way, so that rules out the router problem.

I should also say that in off peak hours and before I reach the 1-2 gig limit (on the unlimited connection I have) the torrents come down very fast, obviously depending on seeds etc. Off peak but over the unlimited limit and its the same thing but not as bad as on peak.

It seems to me that virgin are specifically targeting BT traffic no matter how slow it is coming and going, and once its seen you're using BT then it cripples the whole of your connection and not just the BT traffic until you stop using BT. When you stop its quiet happy to give you back the less crippled connection (though substantially less than what you're paying for!) so you can browse normally.

My other problem is that they deny it.

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

ricedg — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:12:22 GMT

It's more like the old "up to 8 mbps" thing on ADSL.

Virgin hasn't mentioned that everyone is throttled during peak hours, so their advertisied download a song in 6 seconds (or what ever it is) would not be true at peak times.

Notice it's BT that's dobbed them in and not their customers ;)

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

bigdaddy — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 04:50:10 GMT

Is this relevant?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7483675.stm

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

ricedg — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 12:27:01 GMT

From Wiki "BitTorrent is a method of distributing large amounts of data widely without the original distributor incurring the entire costs of hardware, hosting, and bandwidth resources."

This is my biggest arguement against the protocol.
The content providers are not paying to have their wares distributed we are as it's we who pay our ISP bills.
Even if we don't personally Torrent, someone on our ISPs network will be.
"CableLabs, the research organization of the North American cable industry, estimates that BitTorrent represents 18% of all broadband traffic.^[10] In 2004, CacheLogic put that number at roughly 35% of all traffic on the Internet.^[11] The discrepancies in these numbers are caused by differences in the method used to measure P2P traffic on the Internet.^[12]
If you do Torrent, it's your data cap (if you have one) that is being used up to distribte other peoples content to people you don't know. Very altruistic and selfish in the same sentence.

Do have a read of the wiki http://tinyurl.com/27ggk6 here as it describes other reasons why you may be suffering speed drops that have nothing to do with your ISP.

Now the techie bit - again a quote from Wiki
"Routers that use NAT, Network Address Translation, must maintain tables of source and destination IP addresses and ports. Typical home routers are limited to about 2000 table entries while some more expensive routers have larger table capacities. BitTorrent frequently contacts 300-500 servers per second rapidly filling the NAT tables. This is a common cause of home routers locking up"

Now multiply that by an ISP's worth of Torrentors!
It also uses 8 ports, as against the typical 1 port used by "traditional" methods of downloading files from a single server.

Now can you see how my analogy sort of works?
You may be downloading the same amount of data, but it's the way it does it.

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

Teafie — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:33:55 GMT

Great thread.

I also have/had torrent problems, but I had them before virgin, never gave it a second thought as I do not down load stuff like I used to.

As usual, I think dave has hit the nail on the head.:D

Top man Dave.

EDIT: Sorry, BBC iPlayer is used very regular.

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

Spedley — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:47:30 GMT

I thought bittorrent just sent UDP packets back and forth? What sessions are you refering to? (not my subject as you can tell).

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

ricedg — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:04:48 GMT

If you are an ISP (as I have been, and I don't mean I just worked for one ) Bit Torrent is truely a nightmare.

It isn't to do with bandwidth or 24/7 usage (this can be done with other apps and is another arguement), it's the number of sessions it spawns.
It is an awful [b]resource[/b] hog and a total pain in the bum.
We had to ban it totally on our Wireless network, yet we were unlimited in any other respect.
I had one guy download 3-4GB every day (on a 512mb connection).

Car analogies never work correctly, but imagine a lorry carrying the same load as any other lorry, except its' so wide it covers 3 lanes of the motorway.
Then hauliers defence is, well I'm not putting any more wear and tear on the road as a standard shaped lorry so what's your problem?
That's what Bit Torrent is like.

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

Spedley — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:11:11 GMT

I agree with you assinity and I have noticed this for some time. If you are using a torrent client and exceed your bandwidth limit (750KB for me on 4Meg) then your connection is crippled.

For example, this page in the MM forum too 54 seconds to load whislt torrenting at 16.5KB/s down and 10.2KB/s uload (personally capped at 20KB/s)
[url]http://speedtest.net/[/url] too ages to load and gives me (after a very long time) 999ms ping and 78kbps download. I gave up waiting for an upload speed.
Considering I pay £25 per month for 4000kbps download, <1% of that is taking the p***.

After 1 minute without the bit torrent client and speedtest.net gives me 353ms ping, 1006kbps downstream and ... still no result on the upstream.
You could argue I have something setup wrong but I have had 400KB/s download from torrents before with the same settings.

Rather than report you to the authorities for distributing Linux and demos they just make it impossible. :(

A change of supplier may be required, or if I get really annoyed, I'll o something about it instead! :)

Edit: @ 11pm.

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

Drezha — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:23:44 GMT

Traffic shaping does exist on Virgin mind. Downloading during daytime hours decreases the speed you get for ALL of the programs. I was recently with them but I've recently cancelled cos I'm moving tomorrow and I cant get cable in my new house.

It's advertised as unlimited but you will be subject to a fair usage policy. With Virgin's, I believe it mentions P2P downloads during the hours of 9 and and 11 (office hours then peak hours). Also heavy traffic usage during these hours. It's affectted us due to a student house and having 4 people using iPlayer during the day (when Top Gear repeats on Dave get boring ;)

It's quite possible you are getting throttled. But I cant say why it's the torrents. Though as Tippon says, it could be the BT traffic. Some routers struggle with large numbers of connections. Also your PC maybe accepting to many connections.

RE: Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

Tippon — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:03:17 GMT

Are you sure it's not just the bit torrent traffic strangling your connection?

If I have to use bit torrent, I run it overnight, as it slows my computer to a crawl. I can barely browse when it's running, and have trouble accessing other files on my internal network.

The best fixes I have found are:

Leave about 10% of the bandwidth available. i.e. for a 20 meg connection, set the max download speed to 18 meg. Do the same for uploads. This allows the bit torrent client to send connection data etc. as well as the files, and makes things smoother, usually resulting in faster downloads.

Change the default port that your client uses to a much higher number (at least 5 digits) and make sure that you are forwarding TCP and UDP traffic.

If you have the option, turn on QoS in your router, and set HTML and SMTP to a higher priority. This has helped my connection, but doesn't always make a difference.

You should find with these tips that your torrents will speed up and you can browse more smoothly, but still slowly :)

Proof that Virgin target certain traffic?

asininity — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:31:58 GMT

Disclaimer: All files I have downloaded are legal - as some will know I like Linux etc and thats what I've been downloading.

I recently renewed my contract with virgin for one year and also upped my speed to 10 megs which I told was what I'd actually get since its cable and not a phone line. I can say that this is what I get, barring what is being discussed in the other thread about virgin, which I'm not very happy about. I renewed because on my phone line I'd only get a max of 4.5 megs.

Anyway after a couple of weeks at my new speed I started noticing something. Mainly that when I was downloading via bit-torrent that my connection ground to a halt to the point where I couldn't even load some web pages whilst my client was running. If I stopped the client everything went back to normal.

I rang virgin media about this "problem" because I thought it might be a fault only to be told it was down to traffic shaping, which didn't add up. I pointedly asked them if they targeted certain applications such a bit-torrent because I only experience problems when using bit-torrent. They denied this and again fobbed me off with traffic shaping so I left it at that.

That is until I started my experiment 10 hours ago. Firstly what I did was download a lot of stuff, this was just to max out my download limit for the day (I think is about 1 to 2 gigs) which apparently doesn't exist what with my account being advertised as unlimited. At this point my connection is either halved or quartered. On a 10 meg connection browsing the web is still a doddle even with quarter speed, or so you would think.

Currently I am downloading all the FreeBSD ISO's via a directed download from their download site; thats 6 ISO's of about 500 megs each, all of them are downloading at about 80 to 100 kB/s (some above some below at times) which is excellent considering my connection has at the least been halved. Good on virgin.

No not really because a more reliable way of downloading large files like that is with bit-torrent (deluge my client of choice). I'm only downloading one file at the mo in deluge and due to the very few number of peers it is only coming down at 10kB/s at the most even before I reached my download limit. To be absolutely sure I capped the download and upload limit to 5kB/s respectively.

So we have a bit-torrent download and upload of 5kB/s a piece which shouldn't hamper in any way the other 6 direct downloads. In fact what happens is those other 6 downloads ground to a halt altogether sometimes I get 1 to 2 kB/s wow! And I have trouble browsing the web. As soon as I stop the client the speed of the 6 direct downloads shoots back up and I can browse the web at full speed again. I have done this many times all with the same result.

I changed client to Transmission and the same thing happens this time I set the download to unlimited on a torrent that has lots and lots of peers (Ubuntu), you would expect this torrent to come down very fast and hamper the other downloads. What actually happens is it comes download at 1 to 2 kB/s and still hampers the other downloads and web browsing.

The above happens consistently every time I start bit-torrent downloading.

Conclusion:

Virgin are not only targeting specific traffic above other traffic, they are also crippling the whole internet connection of anyone who is using the associated software. Thats a good way of stopping people using bit-torrent and will probably move the pirates back to the newsgroups (while they still have a contract with virgin).

They can get away with targeting bit-torrent because there are very few legal uses for it, I bet they wish they could target direct downloads just as efficiently.

Virgin have lost a customer at the end on this contract, and I haven't even mentioned Phorm.