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RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

JamesW — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:07:35 GMT

Corporate resilience lies mainly in yesterday's backup and a commercial insurance policy. Corporations do have a motive for improving resilience - they generally leak money if their computers stop working for an extended period.

How much to spend on it, though? This is properly determined by a risk assessment (aka doing a Mario), 'seriousness' being the product of two factors:

1) the estimated amount of damage caused by potential hazards (eg hours or days of turnover lost to system failures) and,
2) the likelihood of each such hazard occurring (twice a year, once in a blue moon etc)

People will naturally differ in the quantities they assigh to each variable.

The next step is to assign proportionate and cost-effective risk-control measures to each hazard. Daily backups and an offsite backup store are thought to cover a multitude of these. The cost of insurance policies is largely determined statistically, based on historical risk.

You'll see extinguishers, marked fire exits and blankets in many workplaces, but you don't see a primed fire hose every five metres, because the costs would outweigh the potential risks, although that is essentially a matter of opinion.

The OP imagines a doomsday scenario, and talks up the likelihood of this taking place because of backdoor vulnerabilities in commercial operating systems. Problems with this (referring to the likelihood that the doomsday scenario will actually happen), in my opinion, are that

1) OSs are now developed by very large teams rather than a few individuals and,
2) It's hard (although possible in theory) to design universal vulnerabilities that won't be picked up somewhere along the line.

My guess is that government risk-assessments will also distinguish between core and secondary functions for reasons of cost-effectiveness, because if the tax system goes down for a few weeks it's just inconvenient, while if military comms go down we may be in some trouble.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

darrelljon — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:23:15 GMT

The presumption that our rights like freedom of speech derive from the state and its monopoly of force are wrong.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

BigT — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:14:33 GMT

We can't say whatever we want now, Political Correctness has become so prevalent that we're actually restricted to what we say.

I stand corrected, you are of course right! When I was in the Merchant Navy we were always told to respect the laws of the country we are in; they have a right to govern as they please. However, that right does not seem to be reciprocated - it seems that we have to change to accommodate everybody else and all their foibles. I cannot help but feel that this is mainly a western European trait whilst the rest of the world carries on doing as they please while laughing at us.

But coming back to the thread again, I still think a piece on security in the large corporations and how they will avoid a meltdown would be interesting.

regards to all

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

MartenReed — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:53:34 GMT

BigT, I understand what you said but you're a bit wrong.

We can't say whatever we want now, Political Correctness has become so prevalent that we're actually restricted to what we say. The effects of it are... sickening, actually.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

asininity — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:33:52 GMT

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarchy]Demarchy[/url] works in the court system, should work in real life.:D I've never voted in my life never seen the point, people must see that cameron wont do any better than brown yet they kid themselves.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

BigT — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 03:56:22 GMT

Its a little disappointing to see the critisism of our society and way of life. In many countries you would be too scared to post any such critisism and it is thanks to the dedication of our armed forces that we have the right to say pretty much as we please. As to the government, if you don't like what they are doing, vote them out!

But back to the original subject. There have been a few articles about the security of Windows, Linux etc, but I for one had never really considered the danger of Windows being on 90% of business and military machines. It certainly does make one wonder what would happen if a country was to decide to fund a group for the purpose of crashing the western world. I can think of a few countries that have leaders who might just be crazy enough to try it! It might be interesting to know just how the military would keep their systems free from such an attack, though clearly the details would not be publishable - that would defeat the object.

There again, perhaps an article on how banks and large corporations think they can defend themselves against such an attack and defend our interests. I shudder to think what would happen if some despot managed to cause a mass crash!

My god! I wouldn't be able to access the Micro Mart forum!!!! I'm having withdrawal symptoms just thinking about it! Excuse me while I have a cup of tea and try to relax myself. (LOL)

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

Bruce R — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:40:50 GMT

In the 1950s electrical and electronic goods were still designed and made in the USA or the UK.
Then it switched to US or Dutch designed and made in Japan, then much later, designed in Japan and made in South Korea. In more recent years, designed in Taiwan, made in mainland China, but some very recent products are now being very well designed in, as well as made in China ! ;)
(While most folk haven't even noticed all the 'Made in China' labels.) :w00t:

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

BJM — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:21:48 GMT

[quote][b]Mitch (15/07/2008)[/b][hr]Asus P5B deluxe wifi, e6600, HD3850, Seasonic s12 600, Stacker 830, GeIL 2GB PC2 6400 C4 Black Dragon, NEC Optiarc AD-7191S 20x Internal DVDRW Lightscribe, 2x500GB Spinpoint 501 SATA II. All gone in a communist state .[/quote]

Just an irrelevant cooment, but check out the labels on that stuff - over half is probably manufactured IN the worlds most populous Communist state.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

MartenReed — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:18:38 GMT

Yet, for all the current dislike for this government, no one will rebel (or be revolting ;)) and do something about it.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

Mitch — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:15:53 GMT

Asus P5B deluxe wifi, e6600, HD3850, Seasonic s12 600, Stacker 830, GeIL 2GB PC2 6400 C4 Black Dragon, NEC Optiarc AD-7191S 20x Internal DVDRW Lightscribe, 2x500GB Spinpoint 501 SATA II. All gone in a communist state Bishop. Communism just keeps everybody poor. A truly classless society is a great idea on paper mind you.

However, don't despair, as if you really do want communism, just make sure you vote Labour, you get a sort of socialists version of it now anyway - it really can't be called democracy. The working classes are taxed to death, told what to do, where and what to drive, what you can and can't eat, smoke or drink, what mode of transport to use and how they don't want you to travel etc etc, and the penalty for non conformance, they take all your money off you via totally regressive taxation. At the same time the feckless are allowed to use the benefit system as a lifestyle choice and are rewarded for laziness - so that pulls everyone to an even keel, where we all earn about the same. Obviously, the rich and the aristocracy get richer at the same time, and all the above doesn't apply to them, as they can afford for it not to apply, (Con charges, Petrol Taxation, New Car Taxation Rules, Aircraft "Green" Taxation & Green Taxation in general) but that suits the politicians doesn't it, because they are already wealthy and are only trying to get richer themselves.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

MartenReed — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:19:01 GMT

Very true Bishopp.

But (in my opinion) Communism just doesn't work. It would work, but the fact that many people are greedy (even a little bit) and can be power-hungry contributes to its failure.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

theBishopp — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:32:15 GMT

Democracy is all well and good, but the problem is it being hitched firmly to Capitalism. Democracy is corruptable, as can be proven by looking at the political powers that be in all "democratic" countries. Personally I think Communism would be best - and I don't mean the pseudo communism from the former Soviet bloc, China and others, that the media at large likes to portray as being the real thing. I mean true communism. There is no equal...

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

MartenReed — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:35:50 GMT

It might just be the fragmented sentances :(

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

bigdaddy — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:32:04 GMT

It's perfectly clear to me.:D

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

MartenReed — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:48:42 GMT

[quote][b]digger (14/07/2008)[/b][hr]Proud..Defiant, Fleet Air Arm..12 years.Lifetime of being proud of my country[though I would still like to finish my life in Australia]and despising those who attempt to be-little it.[My Country]
Democracy was lost in 1997..the year of the great white ****.Back to real life..OS s..Bills aint that good..the way forward is to ensure that such as linux carry on Firefox..excellent..how many of you pay a little?Unbuntu and others ..how many of us "subscribe"?we get what we deserve![/quote]

No offense digger, but can you please retype that second paragraph? I really can't make any sense of it.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

darrelljon — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:46:54 GMT

Unlike Windows or OS X, Linux is a democratic operating system.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

digger — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 00:24:10 GMT

Proud..Defiant, Fleet Air Arm..12 years.Lifetime of being proud of my country[though I would still like to finish my life in Australia]and despising those who attempt to be-little it.[My Country]
Democracy was lost in 1997..the year of the great white ****.Back to real life..OS s..Bills aint that good..the way forward is to ensure that such as linux carry on Firefox..excellent..how many of you pay a little?Unbuntu and others ..how many of us "subscribe"?we get what we deserve!

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

Bruce R — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:13:11 GMT

Aah, memories of pre-Concorde Vulcan four Sapphires (later Speys ?) and that enormous Bat !
(Used to large aircraft, even the Americans were impressed, billing it as 'monster Brit aircraft'.)
Edit - for those who don't know what I'm talking about : [url]http://www.tvoc.co.uk/[/url]
BUT, apparently Fairford is OFF again today (cancelled !)

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

Teafie — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 07:55:06 GMT

As for Teafie:

You are not fluent in German, then, Teafie?

I sign myself as one of the 'forgotten', a Bomber Command boy. (No, not 39/45, but a Cold War V bomber chap)

Pass me the Brylcreem, Mitch :P[/quote]

Jammy get, the closest I ever got to VTOL was running around with my arms out jumping up and down, as a boy i must emphasise.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

oldphart — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 01:58:06 GMT

[quote][b]tiborpollerman (partial) "found a vulnerability by reviewing the source code
That era is long gone with Microsoft, Sun, and other OSes used by the military in critical, sensitive, and classified situations. As a systems admin with such systems, I had no means of reviewing or verifying the actual software in use.
An investigative article about this subject would be very interesting.
Today even much of our infrastructure, banking, transportation, are highly dependent on these "invisible" OSes".[/quote]

As someone who was 'in the loop' re your concerns, your request to MM is what may be described as "a bridge too far".

Try one of the "conspiracy theory" websites, where you may find stuff more to your tastes.

As for Teafie:

You are not fluent in German, then, Teafie?

I sign myself as one of the 'forgotten', a Bomber Command boy. (No, not 39/45, but a Cold War V bomber chap)

Pass me the Brylcreem, Mitch :P

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

Mitch — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 01:05:56 GMT

Democracy - basically. (it deserves saving - even if that takes military force)

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

Mitch — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 01:03:52 GMT

Yep....the terrorists try to kill you and your family to make a point about their beliefs....the military protect you and your family from the terrorists regardless of anyones beliefs.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

Teafie — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 00:38:18 GMT

so there is a difference is there.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

Mitch — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 00:29:37 GMT

So do terrorists....and they don't care who!

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

Teafie — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 00:13:01 GMT

Im not interested in the military they kill people.

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

darrelljon — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:22:51 GMT

Sun's operating system by Solaris is partially open source so you can look at the code. Your post title kind of reminded me of the [url=http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/29644]top ten worst uses for Windows story[/url] - but when I read it - it reminded me of [url=http://digg.com/microsoft/More_security_on_Windows_98_than_XP]one of the reasons people still use Windows 98[/url].[quote]If I were equipping a PC based solely on suspicions about the aftermath of 9/11, my primary concern would be the OS itself and the dates of the patches/updates. This is one of several reasons I stay with 98. I'd completely avoid security apps/suites made by the big US companies and choose single purpose programs from small vendors and individuals, from overseas whenever possible.[/quote]

RE: Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

Phitore — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 19:31:49 GMT

This is something that all of us have thought about i'm sure.
Are we just paranoid or is this really possible?
Would make a great article. I'm just not sure how MM would go about it.

Operating Systems used by Military, Government, etc.

tiborpollerman — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:56:53 GMT

I'm a retired computer consultant, with many years working with military and government computers. In the early years of mainframes we always had full access to source code, we signed a non-disclosure agreement with the vendor which provided for a severe penalty if I released any of the source code to anyone not authorized to see it. I can remember occasions when we tracked down a problem, or found a vulnerability by reviewing the source code
That era is long gone with Microsoft, Sun, and other OSes used by the military in critical, sensitive, and classified situations. As a systems admin with such systems, I had no means of reviewing or verifying the actual software in use, it was not vetted by any oorganization and, since 9/11, it seems inconceivable to me that Al Qaeda or other like oorganizationsdon't have some people working in Redmond or Silicon Valley, adding trap doors and vulnerabilities that become widely distributed, and are even now running not only on sensitive military and government computers, but also on my laptop.
I've read occasionally that NSA in the USA tests some OSes, but that doesn't fill me with much confidence.
An investigative article about this subject would be very interesting.
Today even much of our infrastructure, banking, transportation, are highly dependent on these "invisible" OSes.